Comment on The OTW is Recruiting for AO3 Documentation Staff, Graphic Designers, Policy & Abuse Staff, Strategic Planning Staff, and Translation Volunteers

  1. Might consider the Policy & Abuse Staff position if it didn't mean I'd have to tell people reporting child porn that it doesn't count as a real problem for the Archive. The fact there even is a tag for "Extreme Underage" is atrocious, but for those works to essentially be untouchable in terms of what the Archive allows... Yeesh. Not really interested in spending my free time justifying C.P. for 10-15+ hours a week, unfortunately.

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    1. Well, I think not agreeing with the core values of an organization you'd volunteer for won't really bring much happiness or satisfaction with the relationship between you and the OTW to you or them in the long run.

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    2. If you disagree with the AO3 TOS so much, why are you here?

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    3. So you

      1) think that written fiction is morally equivalent to child porn, and

      2) continue to use a website that hosts content you think is equivalent to child porn?

      You know this makes you culpable too, right? Just the same as if you were a user of a video-hosting site where actual videos of actual child porn got uploaded. Unless, of course, written fiction isn't actually equivalent to videos of real-life children being raped.

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      1. i mean written fiction that's about kids getting r*ped is still pretty fucking gross. of course it isn't morally equivalent to ACTUAL REAL-LIFE ABUSE, but that doesn't mean it's okay either?? especially considering how much RPF porn about actual kids is on here. if you write porn about kids and fantasize about kids in sexual situations often enough to write it, chances are you're a pedophile. fandom and writing shouldn't be used to excuse pedophilia, even if it isn't ~as bad~ as video/photo child pornography. pedophilia is pedophilia, period

        also, where is anyone else supposed to go?? fandom isn't a big, decentralized hub of archives anymore. it's all in one spot and if you want people to see what you write, you have to post it here. it's a monopoly thing

        (btw, i don't think your last point there is super fair. every site has morally bankrupt shit on it. i mean, facebook is fucking FULL of child porn. is someone who uses fb culpable for using the site innocently?? or youtube, twitter, vimeo, instagram, etc.? that's definitely a false equivalency)

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        1. Uh, my dude, Fanfiction.net and Wattpad still exist, are huge, and have been around longer than AO3, and as a bonus for you: neither allow what you think of as pedophilia. There are also all the fandom specific kinkmemes, wikis, and forums on places like Reddit and Fandom.com. You can do fandom on Twitter like A LOT of other people do, or even go to fandom-centric social media platforms like Pillowfort or Boba board. You don't lose all connection to fandom if you chose not to come to AO3. *There is no monopoly.* You could even make your own fandom specific archive too; you don't actually *need* to be on a single site with EVERY fandom.

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        2. Yes, fictional stories about underage sex or sexual assault ARE gross, but they’re not illegal because no actual children are harmed by them. The argument of “well if you have this story online, it’ll make people think it’s okay to r*pe children!!!” is the exact same argument as the “violent video games should be banned because they create murderers!!!” argument. For the same reason that those video games and movies about murdering people are legal while snuff films are illegal, you can’t treat written fiction the same as you treat actual cp photos or videos. Also, I’d have to agree with the other person. If Wattpad and Fanfiction.net and other fanfiction forums ban underage works and are more in line with what you’re comfortable with, yet you choose to stay on the site you’re uncomfortable with because you “like it better” or whatever, that... seems like a you problem. There is a solution for you, you just are purposefully not taking it...

          Last Edited Fri 19 Feb 2021 10:33PM EST

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        3. I mean I don't use Facebook because it's a garbage platform, but if I did then I wouldn't feel any right to complain about it. I don't see child porn on YouTube, but if it was an epidemic there, there's Vimeo and Daily Motion and Peertube.

          Fanfiction dot net exists, Wattpad exists, or you can go get yourself a free Neocities account and learn some basic fucking Html and help fix the problem of fandom being centralized instead of going "welp, I have no choice but to use a website that hosts actual factual child porn"!

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        4. Is it still pedophilia if the writers are also actual kids? I mean let's not forget that fans are generally young and a lot of fanfictions writers are teenagers themselves and a lot of adult writers have grown up shipping these characters (they didn't start fantasizing about kids in sexual situations when they became an adult, more likely they have been part of fandom since they were same age as the characters).
          Now I'm sure there are pedophiles here who write X-rated fanfictions about minor fictional characters but I don't think the majority of fics are actually problematic.

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        5. God damn. The second someone points out that CP is morally reprehensible, everyone else gets so vicious toward the person pointing it out. It's depressing. Yeah, I support freedom of speech on AO3 too and it’s great to have a place where everyone can do their own special fucked up thing.

          BUT

          If you habitually write pedophilia as if you’re getting off on it, people are going to judge you. Tough shit. If you can't handle it then turn off comments or go to mastodon.

          I personally wouldn't mind if AO3 had volunteers who analyzed and censored it. I don't buy the slippery slope argument. Other sites do this and it's not as much of a problem as people make it out to be. Then again, I don't have the life experience of those who have been around since livejournal so maybe there's something I don't know.

          I don't like the leniency with CP here. I'm not going to lash out at AO3 over it but I'm never going to be comfortable with volunteering, either. The staff here are giving up their time to provide a free service to the best of their ability and I still respect that.

          Last Edited Mon 22 Feb 2021 03:23PM EST

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          1. Uh, other sites have HUGE problems with this? This is an ongoing problem on pretty much every platform? There isn't really a good solution to objectionable content on sites like facebook or youtube, and facebook PAYS content moderators (who often end up with PTSD from the type of content they're supposed to screen). Not sure what sites you think have been able to solve this problem, especially not sites that have the kind of user base and level of activity AO3 does.

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            1. ?

              I never claimed that other sites solved the problem. Only that they’re able to maintain some regulation without ruining the platform.

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              1. "Other sites do this and it's not as much of a problem as people make it out to be." Other sites are actually failing at regulating the content on their platform, even with paid moderators.

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                1. Other sites are making an effort to minimize the fetishization of childhood sexual abuse.

                  The *existence of moderation* is not as much of an issue as people make it out to be.

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                  1. Is it that they're actively minimizing this specific thing or is it that they aren't purpose built to be anticensorship the way ao3 is?

                    What would further moderation on ao3 look like? More rules? It was founded to host content that was being banned elsewhere. It would be at cross purposes to then ban that content.

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    4. You know this is basically like saying “yeah I’d consider a job as a pharmacist if it didn’t mean I had to hand out medications.”

      You are on some next level entitlement there dude.

      Never mind if you found real CP you’d be legally required in almost every country to delete it, inform your superiors, and inform the appropriate authorities. But that doesn’t mean text only. Reporting that wastes time that can be used to stop real child traffickers. But you’re too busy having a tantrum to do anything useful with your life.

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      1. Not to mention I’m not sure of many, if any, countries in which someone would face actual legal consequences for writing a fictional story about something illegal... hell if that were the case there are plenty of crime novelists who would be in jail for writing about graphic murder

        Last Edited Fri 19 Feb 2021 10:36PM EST

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