Comment on Important changes to adding work, chapter, and series co-creators

  1. As someone who has co-written and collaborated a lot to my knowledge it is impossible to un co author a person unless it is of their own volition. They can remove themselves from the work.

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    1. blooming evening primrose

      While it's a good thing that authors can only remove themselves as co-creators, not other users, that doesn't help when one single co-creator can remove the whole work without consent of their co-creator(s) - which is actually possible currently as I learned in the last few minutes by reading further on in this thread.

      I feel with everyone who has lost any works that way and I really hope that AO3 removes this possibility as soon as possible.

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      1. I can already think of way around that honestly a co-author a could easily edit the fiction down to a single word and I don't think the co-author would be any the wiser effectively deleting the entire work. It would be a lot more difficult than just pressing a delete button but it's still possible. :/ hmmmm I do kind of wonder if any of my co-authors would edit the fiction and make it seem silly like removing words adding random sentences and I would be none the wiser. As someone who is learned most of the ins and outs of this site over the past 4 years that malicious thought has never occurred to me.

        If this one thing I do like to do it is showcasing a flaw in the system even to my own detriment random storytime.

        I remember over a year ago I was angry annoyed disgruntled that a fiction I was reading didn't have the pairing as described in the well pairing section it was a character / character which is clearly indicative of a romantic relationship how I thoroughly read the two chapters did they had up and there was not even a hint of a romantic or sexual relationship between the characters and I asked them when are they going to you know fall in love or whatever and they explicitly said in the comment that they have no intention of riding them in a romantic relationship so this false advertising urge way to report them where I discovered that this does not break the terms of service so you can put whatever pairing you want on your fiction no matter its contents so to Showcase this flaw I wrote a crossover between Harry Potter Sherlock Holmes and Marvel with a host of erroneous pairings that were never in the fiction. Granted it was 32000 words of haters going to hate on repeat at the same time I urged people in the comments to report it just to prove a point. That was my way to raise awareness of the issue I found. Which resulted in my account being suspended for a week. But hey it was for the greater good.

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        1. blooming evening primrose

          I can already think of way around that [...]

          Yeah, you're right. I'm afraid there's no easy solution/protection then :(

          Regarding '/' versus '&' relationships: I found that using those incorrectly mostly is not intentional false advertising but just not knowing about the difference. When explaining that in a kind manner to the author (combined with some feedback to the work itself) I almost always received positive replies and the tag was revised.

          Last Edited Sat 07 Sep 2019 09:20PM EDT

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          1. To be honest with you I don't think it's a large issue then again I didn't realize that adding people to fictions that weren't theirs was a large issue either.

            Yeah catch more flies with honey than you do with vinegar is a saying that should be applied more to the internet as a whole lol

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            1. blooming evening primrose

              Indeed. :)
              (to all points)

              and while co-creatorship and its abuse-possibilities may not affect me directly, I don't want any fellow fans suffer from it either. So I'm still concerned on their behalf (at least nobody has to worry about unwanted co-creatorship anymore now).

              btw: thank you for all your kind replies and having a nice discussion about some interesting topics :)

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              1. Likewise I really enjoyed our discussion, it's condor is refreshing.

                Personally I love having debates it is seldom I find a muse that can flex my mind, philosophically and intellectually.

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                1. blooming evening primrose

                  :)

                  Thank you!
                  And I feel the same.

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        2. You tell them, Zero_kun. Also, this is 2019 and the idiot staff behind AO3 won't give a Pm (private message) system. In 2019! AO3 is better than FFN because there is no censorship and purge of fics deemed to have explicit sexual content or adult content, AO3 gives us full freedom of expression/speech as fanfiction writers and I personally perfer the AO3 tag system to whatever FFN has in tha regard. But FFN has a PM system and most fanfiction sites in this day and age have one. AO3 still won't modernized in that regard and give fanfiction writers and fanfiction readers a communication system, whether it's PM, chat or anything like that, on the AO3 site itself. Fanfiction writers and readers are reduced to communicating in the comment section of some fanfics and some want to deem that as "spam". Communication is not really encouraged here.

          I've been writing and posting fanfics on AO3 for 12 months now and I can't seem to get any reviews or con-crit and I only get kudos which is not as helpful, it doesn't help that there is no means of communication on AO3 despite its great tagging system and its wonderful job at preserving freedom of expression/speech for fanfic writers and their works (if you don't like you don't read, but there's no censorship or purge on here).

          Every time frustrated people asked AO3 staff when they're going to make a PM system for AO3 users or some similar communication system on the AO3 site itself, the AO3 staff danced around the issue and claimed that thy were working on something like that but it's been going on for years now and we still don't have a PM or chat system on AO3 to allow writers and readers to communicate with each other, to ask for feedback, to talk about some fanfic projects they'd like to work on together, to talk about prompts, and other stuff related to fanfiction. Not everyone has or want to have a Facebook or Twitter account (especially now that they have found out that Facebook and Twitter do nothing to protect your privacy and that those sites/social media steal and sell your datas and personal informations without your consent).

          This guy is telling it like it is:

          https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WhB7_4sxff8

          Fanfiction writers should start a petition and demand that AO3 make a PM system or some similar communication system that allow writers and readers to communicate with each other on a regular basis like FFN and all other modern fanfiction websites do. AO3 needs to join the 21st century in that regard. I feel let down as a fanfiction writer and I bet there are a lot of others like me who feel let down because they can't ask for feedback or con-crit, or talk about prompts or co-work on projects with other fanfic writers, etc. It makes it very difficult for people who are not interested in having a Facebook or Twitter account (and a lot of people want nothing to do with Facebook or Twitter, it's more common than you realize). Should you start a petition like this or find people who would start one, I would definitely sign it and share it on Youtube and Mewe as best as I can.

          Michelle.

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          1. My work around for communication is Discord, honestly. I created a writing corner that anyone is free to join- though my only advertisement for it has been on my profile and in my works lol.

             

            I have a couple actives who try to poke me with sticks for updates, and I honestly love it. I've been able to customize to allow for recs, prompts, story chat,, gen chat ect.

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            1. I use Discord as well and I would be tempted to inquire you about a collaborative endeavor in the future but judging by your current works we have little in common sadly.

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              1. Taking a peek at your fandom list I would have to agree that we don't overlap much- though I have done some work in Naruto (Naruto is my sunshine child and I love pairing him up- though I will freely warn that I am a slash writer for the most part and I know that isn't everyone's cuppa).

                The works I have posted atm are actually a fraction of my fandoms though. I have works still trapped in notebooks and on my hard drive that I haven't posted lol,

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                1. Personally I'm always down for a Naruto fiction if your interested? If you are, do you have any triggers I should be made aware of? Personally I have none and I revel in taboo and sin again I love AO3 for giving me the ability to do so.

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          2. O.o here here I will always and continue to praise AO3 for its freedom and liberty ( Eagle screeches in the background) works of fiction should never be censored and that is something I will always applaud AO3 for doing at every opportunity I can. The tagging system is incredible it's so user-friendly it's baffling that other sites don't use something similar I will never use ff.net or Wattpad or even adult FanFiction because AO3 is clearly Superior in many regards including not censoring as well as the tag system BUT yes I would like a private message system in order to not clog up people's fictions with off-topic conversations that have nothing to do with the fiction therein. I made a document specifically for communication where we would communicate in the comment section between co authors technically broke the terms of service I believe (don't ban me plz) but no one ever found it because it wasn't tagged at all. To be fair there are some things that you mentioned that are accomplished with the current comment posting system like leaving criticisms for grammar and such however there are some aspects that would be better suited for a private exchange. Or hell maybe a user is ashamed of enjoying a particular fiction because it has a not-safe-for-work rating or some sort of frown upon kink and doesn't want to leave a public review out of fear of retaliation sure they could log out but is anybody really going to go through the effort to do that when a private messaging system is in place that would make commenting have less scrutiny.

            Also is it too much to ask for ability to know who is subscribed to you? I would love to be able to show my subscribers specific appreciation. I have specifically thanked individual people who have left kudos but that's only because I know who they are I think subscribing to me is much more validating and gratitude earning. That's a weird way to phrase that but I think you get my point.

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            1. There's a privacy-issue with revealing subscriber names, I think, which is probably why they haven't prioritized it. Similar to what was mentioned about wanting to comment but not wanting to go through the hassle of logging out and then back in.

              I don't think ffdnet shows the follower names either, but can't recall for sure since I'm almost never on there anymore, lol. Maybe they just don't show the public the names.

              Honestly, AO3 should just add a "comment anon?" or "comment as guest?" option to publishing a comment, so that way the commentor maintains their privacy but can still track replies.

              It can just hide the name to the public and/or author but still allow the site to track for tracing any misuse/abuse to a troll's account.

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            2. (10 more comments in this thread)

            3. Yes you're damn right, zero_kun...

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          3. I think I've found the basis for your issue.
            An archive is a place in which public records or historical materials (such as documents) are preserved.
            As opposed to social media which is defined as forms of electronic communication (such as websites for social networking and microblogging) through which users create online communities to share information, ideas, personal messages, and other content (such as videos)

            Hint: the clue is in the site name.

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            1. "I think I've found the basis for your issue.
              An archive is a place in which public records or historical materials (such as documents) are preserved.
              As opposed to social media which is defined as forms of electronic communication (such as websites for social networking and microblogging) through which users create online communities to share information, ideas, personal messages, and other content (such as videos)

              Hint: the clue is in the site name."

              You are dead wrong mr. or mrs. trying to be helpful (which you're really not, helpful, at the moment).

              All fanfic sites have a PRIVATE mesage system today in 2019, including FFN. There is no excuse for the AO3 staff not modernizing/getting with the times in that regard and not having a PM system on this fanfic site itself that allows for communication between fanfic writers and readers. Like I said, not everyone want to have a Facebook or Twitter account, especially now that those two social media have been found guilty of the crime of stealing and selling your datas without your consent which is illegal and criminal and they do not respect people's privacy.

              Those two people are telling it like it is (here are two must watch videos that you should definitely read and share):

              https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WhB7_4sxff8

              https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TOlg_2qAbUA

              You need to wake up, those "social media" are not safe, they are stealing and leaking and selling your datas without your consent, and your government is spying on you. Stop being a dumb sheep and wake up.

              Michelle.

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            2. (2 more comments in this thread)

          4. I've been writing and posting fanfics on AO3 for 12 months now and I can't seem to get any reviews or con-crit and I only get kudos which is not as helpful
            I feel let down as a fanfiction writer and I bet there are a lot of others like me who feel let down because they can't ask for feedback or con-crit

            You can ask for feedback/concrit in notes at either end of a story (or both).

            However, those two quotes in conjunction make it sound like you'd be sending PMs to everybody who left kudos asking for feedback/concrit. As a reader, that would put me right off.

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            1. elederwitty,

              I never said that I want to send PMs to everybody who left kudos for feedback/con-crit (so don't twist my words or put words in my mouth that I didn't say), only the ones I have a close friendship with and we would ask each others for advices, tips, colabs, con-crit, etc. Also this is 2019, for fuck sake. All fanfic sites have a PRIVATE mesage system today in 2019, including FFN. There is no excuse for the AO3 staff not modernizing/getting with the times in that regard and not having a PM system on this fanfic site itself that allows for communication between fanfic writers and readers. Like I said, not everyone want to have a Facebook or Twitter account, especially now that those two "social media" have been found guilty of the crime of stealing and selling your datas without your consent which is illegal and criminal and they do not respect people's privacy.

              Those two people are telling it like it is (here are two must watch videos that you should definitely read and share):

              https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WhB7_4sxff8

              https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TOlg_2qAbUA

              You need to wake up, those "social media" are not safe, they are stealing and leaking and selling your datas without your consent, and your government is spying on you. Stop being a dumb sheep and wake up.

              Michelle.

              Last Edited Sun 08 Sep 2019 03:26PM EDT

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            2. (11 more comments in this thread)

          5. Wow, aren’t you an entitled little shit yelling at a bunch of volunteers. Newsflash. No one is paid. This is a labor of love. If you don’t like the way it’s set up... go somewhere else.

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            1. Well, I have wondered about a private messaging function for the Archive since I started about a year ago. Sometimes it is frustrating because I would like to maybe approach an author about collaborating on a future project or maybe discuss something which happened in the fandom in general not related to any of the works posted.

              A friend (who encouraged and told me about the Archive) and I discussed it recently. While we both liked the idea of a pm system, especially for the purposes of collaborating, we did also find a possible reason for the developers to hesitate on a pm system.

              It's bad enough if there are trolls or hateful comments lurking about in your comments section, it wouldn't be any fun to have them be able to pm you hateful/hurtful/spam messages directly to you.

              The archive being free of censorship does leave a lot of works which some people won't like for any variety of reasons and a pm system could lend itself to some nasty comments.

              We do have the ability to report such things, but it is possible some of the hesitance comes from wanting to have a plan in place, or even some kind of preventive measure against private online bullying.

              My friend and I discussed the possibility of giving users the ability to pick and choose users allowed to pm (basically like a 'friends' list) and of course the ability to block bullies. Perhaps there is another preventive measures available, but who knows how tricky the coding could be and since it is all volunteer work figuring it out might just be too time consuming currently with other archive needs on the table.

              With the addition of the collaborator invites though, maybe they could at least create a system where co-creators, those with accepted invites, at least have a private message thread to better communication on their work.

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            2. "Wow, aren’t you an entitled little shit yelling at a bunch of volunteers. Newsflash. No one is paid. This is a labor of love. If you don’t like the way it’s set up... go somewhere else."

              O.o,

              Just because it's a labor of love doesn't mean that the AO3 staff is immune to valid and constructive criticism. And thank God you aren't one of the staff members because if you were shutting down valid and legit criticism as a staff member it would be devastating for this site and detrimental for its writers and readers.

              I've said it before and I'll say it again until it sinks in.

              This is 2019, for fuck sake. All fanfic sites have a PRIVATE mesage system today in 2019, including FFN. There is no excuse for the AO3 staff not modernizing/getting with the times in that regard and not having a PM system on this fanfic site itself that allows for communication between fanfic writers and readers. A PM system and friend list system would allow fanfic writers to ask each others for advices, tips, colabs, con-crit, etc and for friends to just wish each other happy holidays or happy birthday or some shit and have some socialization on the site itself just like they do on FFN and all other fanfic sites, AO3 is one of the very rare ones that still doesn't have a PM system. Like I said, not everyone want to have a Facebook or Twitter account, especially now that those two "social media" have been found guilty of the crime of stealing and selling your datas without your consent which is illegal and criminal and they do not respect people's privacy.

              Those two people are telling it like it is (here are two must watch videos that you should definitely read and share):

              https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WhB7_4sxff8

              https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TOlg_2qAbUA

              You need to wake up, those "social media" are not safe, they are stealing and leaking and selling your datas without your consent, and your government is spying on you. Stop being a dumb sheep and wake up.

              Michelle.

              Last Edited Sun 08 Sep 2019 03:32PM EDT

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              1. I can't seem to get any reviews or con-crit and I only get kudos which is not as helpful
                What does this have to do with a PM system? While it's nice to get that stuff when it comes along, sure, and it would be good if more people did it, in the end, nobody owes you anything. A PM system isn't going to fix this complaint—it generally comes down to your choice of fandom, genre, main character(s), and/or something else to do with you. Also, consider that the behavior you've been displaying so far in this thread might explain why people don't leave helpful reviews, if this is the sort of tone you take with them when you ask for feedback or they try to offer advice you don't like.

                I never said that I want to send PMs to everybody who left kudos ... only the ones I have a close friendship with and we would ask each others for advices, tips, colabs, con-crit, etc.
                If you're merely looking to engage with people you describe as close friends, presumably you're all that close because you have other methods of contact readily available that may not be as convenient as something within AO3, but will suffice. Why would it be so apparently imperative to use a PM function of AO3, to the point that you would speak rudely of the very people whose time and generosity you desperately need and are trying to call upon?

                Fanfiction writers and readers are reduced to communicating in the comment section of some fanfics and some want to deem that as "spam".
                "Some" who? Honest question—I've literally never encountered this. To what page on AO3 can I go to read about "some" making this assertion?

                Communication is not really encouraged here. ... You are dead wrong mr. or mrs. trying to be helpful (which you're really not, helpful, at the moment).
                Actually, the one who's dead wrong is you, because you misunderstand the point of AO3. AO3 is an archive site as opposed to a social site, and the difference matters; it makes sense that accommodating commentary—a social activity—isn't high on the list of things to do for a site that's merely archiving peoples' work.

                If people don't complain and start petitions nothing will ever change. ... Fanfiction writers should start a petition ... Should you start a petition like this or find people who would start one, I would definitely sign it and share it on Youtube and Mewe as best as I can.
                "Fanfiction writers should?" Why "fanfiction writers" and not you? You are the one being unnecessarily aggressive in your complaints, so what's stopping you from doing something that you clearly consider more important than anything else AO3 could be doing now? Step up and show some initiative. Either start a petition yourself or figure out how to create a PM system and lobby the AO3 staff to implement it. Then, if they rejected it, you'd at least have a leg to stand on when you demand answers and get angry over something so secondary to AO3's intentions.

                Also, this is 2019 and the idiot staff behind AO3 won't give a Pm (private message) system. In 2019! ... most fanfiction sites in this day and age have one. ... AO3 still won't modernized ... AO3 needs to join the 21st century in that regard. ... This is 2019, for fuck sake. All fanfic sites have a PRIVATE mesage system today in 2019, including FFN.
                So if all the other fanfic sites jumped off a bridge, then . . .?

                I don't have an issue with your wish for a PM system—the absence of one was possibly the first thing I noticed here, and I'd like to see it as well. But your reasoning is weak. The fact that it's 2019 doesn't mandate the existence of a PM system, you and your friends have other non-social media methods of communication available, and your entitled complaints about "idiot staff" certainly aren't going to win you and your twelve illustrious months on AO3 any sympathy. If you just can't abide not having a PM system, accept the restrictions imposed by other fanfic sites and go there; alternatively, if you must have the freedom AO3 allows because that's just the sort of thing you write, then accept the limitations and priorities of AO3 and keep asking—politely, like a grownup—for a PM system.

                Just because it's a labor of love doesn't mean that the AO3 staff is immune to valid and constructive criticism.
                They aren't immune to valid and constructive criticism, but if you think calling the staff idiots is constructive, you need to educate yourself. The same applies to your childish "not helpful" snark about another user's name. Being frustrated does not excuse immature lashing out at anyone and everyone.

                 

                ~Reg

                EDIT: Grammar and a space.

                Last Edited Mon 09 Sep 2019 05:01AM EDT

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          6. I-uhm... quite like the lack of PM’ing on here. If I want concrit, I’ll ask, but if people don’t feel like leaving any... well. That’s what a writer’s group is for.

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          7. "Also, this is 2019 and the idiot staff behind AO3 won't give a Pm (private message) system."

            What a fucking entitled little shit you are.

            The people giving us this *free* archive that - contrary ff.net and most other archives and social media sites - does not make money by spamming you with advertisements or selling your data are *volunteers*. They do this in their free time.

            If you want a PM system, why do you not sign up to program one? Since it is so easy to do? Or volunteer with Support or Abuse? The people who will have to deal with the harassment and other trouble a PM system will cause?

            This site is an archive. Post a link to your tumblr, twitter, discord if you want messages.
            Or instead of complaining how about you just fuck off and use one of those other archives you seem so fond of?

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